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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:27 pm
Well I wish you luck Bayler but I can tell you that you honestly don't stand a chance in hell in any legal battle if they have not claimed copywrite for themselves.
A) They are not selling your script but access to their site on which the script is hosted.
B) The thing I find actually quite funny about this whole argument is you are doing it on a site that does the exact same thing you are bitching about them doing. Of course the site you're allying with doesn't have the particular script mentioned so I guess you think it's ok as long as it is not your script? Even funnier is the sites you did the developing on are guilty of the exact same thing too.
C) This talk about encoding BTW is technically the only illegal activity being done in the conversation.
Besides being illegal I think you missed the whole point of OpenSource. I mean be honest. How did you learn to code PHP? I bet 10 - 1 it started with PHP=Nuke (or one of its derivatives). Yes I know you probably had to read books or search learning sites online to actually learn the principles like syntax functions etc. But what drew you in and what code you learned from was based from PHPnuke wasn't it?
PHPnuke and any work derived from it was MEANT to be OpenSource to share the knowledge to make it grow and give EVERYONE equal opportunity and the chance to learn and improve it. To develop for it otherwise defeats its purpose. If it annoys you that people are finding ways to profit from what was or is meant to be a hobby then you don't fight that problem by doing the same thing. You only encourage it when you do that. Unless you and the rest of the community realizes what OpenSource is about Phpnuke and it's derivatives are doomed to failure. It is evident already by the slide in users world wide and will become more evident in the future if things don't change.
I would also be willing to bet 10 - 1 that each person here who is bitching about Piracy is 100% guilty of the same practices. I seriously would bet real money that each of them has software or otherwise something for which they do not hold full legal ownership rights for. Yet they are all mad someone else has given their hard work away even though their hard work was meant for something that should be freely available to the public to begin with. Hypocrisy at its finest!
Don't get me wrong. As a developer I would be quite upset with people profiting from my hard work that was intended to be free to others as well but I am equally upset that I see the Nuke developers trying to encode code for a system that should be distributed freely. I mean I am currently building code that'll do many of the things you guys are talking about but I and you could have saved ourselves a ton of time if we worked together to make one system better than building 3 different systems alone. In the end we would have a better product and be able to do more and keep up with changing technologies faster and improve the options for the community to choose from.
And although I think theme makers are also hypocrites too I do think there is a need to make themes for which people must pay as that is what allows people to have websites that look different from everyone elses giving them some uniqueness and individuality for their sites but the code for themes should also not be encoded when it is for an OpenSource CMS.
So please wake up and smell the coffee and stop waisting time trying to "protect" your work and get involved in doing what the community was meant to be doing in the first place.
Bayler
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Re: Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:54 am
While i DO thank you for your Wishes...as ive quoted previously im not going after Civil Action, but that of Criminal Action which has already been determined via a Prosecutor in NY. My Complaint was more directed at GoDaddy.com as i feel They too should be held Liable,and have every intention of holding them to that liability. Again, i dont have to Know or understand the Legal Aspects of it, i simply have to support my Attorney whom is not only an Acting Attorney but also a Township Judge...so I believe everything stated that he says..wouldn't You?
Not sure i understand about your ( B ).....Ill have to ask you to explain in further detail on that!
As for (C) i whole heartedly Agree to a Point, Yest im aware its a violation of GPL...but not criminally Illegal...and can only be Civily covered if the originating Author is willing to file claim..which...Im not going to take action against myself..so i believe im safe from any time of action!
( If i do take myself to court, i dont need an attorney, i need a shrink ) !!!
However, Myself,I have in the past, and will continue to Encrypt my Work in the future! By every aspect, its more secure in every way..
Its cheaper( 25 cents per file VS 179$ for Court Filing Fee) , and 99% controllable ( Access Keys, Domain Locks..... I Do agree that those that suffer are the end users as ive stated previously in this Topic....however....someone has to pay a price, and your correct..im tired of ME being the one to pay the price!
Ped
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Re: Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:00 am
Nice post Bayler
I just got a reply from Telli from Codewizz he is prepared to submit a claim as well.
Seen as he has nearly all his commercial scripts as well
Bayler
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:44 pm
WOW..i dint know so many of his themes where being distributed....
I did get Wesern Studios MSN...and we have added each other...but we are playing 'Tag' online trying to get a chance to talk...
Slow Process so far!
Im VERY glad to hear Telli is submitting a claim...all we can do is wait and see how long it takes Godaddy.com to repsond!
Guardian
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:35 pm
Bayler - I'm not trying to start an argument here but I'm curious about your statement regarding the other sites clam that;
Quote:
We can legally charge to cover costs of our servers and bandwidth ) is a crock of crap...and any attorney can chew holes in that claim...
What specifically makes you think that it is NOT legal for them to charge a small fee to cover server/bandwidth costs?
Last time I looked, that 'allowance' was enshrined within the GNU GPL license and that particular issue has been contested and lost many times - has something changed?
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:10 pm
To answer your Question Guardian, Bayler is wrong, no lawyer can chew holes in that. If the case should go to court (which I highly doubt) he will lose flat out and waste his money.
Which is why, to punctuate point B which Bayler asked for more clarification on, the Following sites (to name only a few of many) also charge to access Downloads:
Darkforgegfx
EvoClans
Platinum
And even this site Clantthemes
Which is what I meant by point B that I find it actually ironic that you (Bayler) are so adamant about trying to shut this other site down for distributing your code when you develop (or have developed) for no less than a minimum of 4 sites guilty of the same practice you are upset about. This entire conversation is taking place in a site that is probably the largest culprit of said practice. However they like the other place are legally entitled to do so. Neither is entitled to claim work as their own but to redistribute they are allowed. Of course professional courtesy would dictate getting permission first but that is not always afforded unfortunately.
And also for your point about who can sue who Bayler you also have misunderstood the licsencing and copywrite laws in this respect as well because it is not only the Auther of the module himself that can bring to court the issue of encoding scripts but also the following:
Francisco Burzi since your module is encompassed by his original license
Anybody who has downloaded your module cause legally you have to provide the source code for any publicly released script encompassed by the GPL.
Furthermore I do not understand why you develop modules for nuke if you don't intend them to be used by the widest audience possible? You continue to miss the whole point of OpenSource. You are wasting your time and energy fighting to protect something that honestly isn't worth it. If you wanna make money from coding hire yourself out but if you wanna code for the joy of it then be happy people want your product and get it out there and you'll build a name and a rep that will be respected and last for a long time. Otherwise you'll fade into the woodwork and have fought so briskly for nothing.
Ped
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Re: Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:29 pm
Duck
You keep referring to clan themes as the worst culprit for hosting commercial/paid for scripts ?
Can you please show us a link to one please ?
DoC
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Re: Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:33 pm
To answer your Question Guardian, Bayler is wrong, no lawyer can chew holes in that. If the case should go to court (which I highly doubt) he will lose flat out and waste his money.
Which is why, to punctuate point B which Bayler asked for more clarification on, the Following sites (to name only a few of many) also charge to access Downloads:
Darkforgegfx
EvoClans
Platinum
And even this site Clantthemes
Which is what I meant by point B that I find it actually ironic that you (Bayler) are so adamant about trying to shut this other site down for distributing your code when you develop (or have developed) for no less than a minimum of 4 sites guilty of the same practice you are upset about. This entire conversation is taking place in a site that is probably the largest culprit of said practice. However they like the other place are legally entitled to do so. Neither is entitled to claim work as their own but to redistribute they are allowed. Of course professional courtesy would dictate getting permission first but that is not always afforded unfortunately.
And also for your point about who can sue who Bayler you also have misunderstood the licsencing and copywrite laws in this respect as well because it is not only the Auther of the module himself that can bring to court the issue of encoding scripts but also the following:
Francisco Burzi since your module is encompassed by his original license
Anybody who has downloaded your module cause legally you have to provide the source code for any publicly released script encompassed by the GPL.
Furthermore I do not understand why you develop modules for nuke if you don't intend them to be used by the widest audience possible? You continue to miss the whole point of OpenSource. You are wasting your time and energy fighting to protect something that honestly isn't worth it. If you wanna make money from coding hire yourself out but if you wanna code for the joy of it then be happy people want your product and get it out there and you'll build a name and a rep that will be respected and last for a long time. Otherwise you'll fade into the woodwork and have fought so briskly for nothing.
Clan Themes is actually in this because of said site renaming and claiming work done by Clan Themes as there own, also more than likely changing the copyright in the module to hide such fact that it was ORIGINALLY made by Floppy of CLANTHEMES.
I believe the whole topic of conversation here Duck is about formentioned site renaming and classing work done by others as there own which is a completly different matter than just charging for distribution. The original complaint was not for this fact it is you that is continualy bringing up the fact about GPL modules being sold. You have brought this up 2 times so far, we get your point move on.
DoC
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Bayler
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:54 pm
Duck,
The GPL states that yes, distributors are allowed to charge an 'Access' fee NOT to Exceed the amount of the Source Access....
Meaning, if I provide the Public with the Source Access for 0.00$ then someone could not Legally come along and Sell Access to the same script for a Membership Fee of $5.00 .....
Also not, the Source is not REQUIRED to be Advertised to the Public as to WHERE to obtain that source free of charge!
So in essence, somewhere on the NET, you will find the source code for MILPACS ( My Version )..... which prevents the named site from selling this script for membership Access of more the $0....
if you wish to further understand how this is covered in the GPL...look into ( BINARY)
As for Darkforge GFX, since as the Copyright Owner is myself, they can get away with it, because i refuse to file a complaint and have granted authority to control its Beta Testing. ( As Long as its in BETA ) its actually NOT fully regulated by GPL, cause it has NOT been Released!
As you will find, the GPL is full of 'Catch 22s' where it can be turned into a vicious circle.....
Now, if you also look into United States Federal Statues..specifically in Section 506...there is a Clause that even Trumps GPL...
Which, ive ALREADY stated previously in this Topic, and is EXACTLY what im using to present both godaddy.com and phpnuke-downloads.com with Criminal Prosecution... ( Doubt it will get that far, as i honestly believe Godaddy.com will drop their service to the named site prior to getting that far )
Im not sure how much clearer i can be on this subject...If my Attorney Understands it, and a DA is willing to Prosecute, then its up to a Jury to Convict..not to a bunch of people taking shots at what they perceive to know a 'Civil Offense' which has nothing to do with a 'Criminal Offense'..... And to show how Criminal & Civil are two completely separate things...look into ( O. J. Simpson )..who was aquitted of Murder in a Criminal Court BUT was successfully Sue in a Civil Court....
Ill say it one more time..just so everyone is clear..the GPL has no bearing in my actions toward the named website, as its being pursued as a 'Criminal Action'....
As for Other sites, and why they are charging Access to Scripts, so long as they are the Author, or an Agent of the Author, They can, and should do what they want..if they are in FACT violating GPL..the ONLY people that are able to act, are the Authors...and as ive Stated before..id be an idiot to Sue myself!
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:47 am
Ped I nowhere said anything about commercial scripts but for that matter the scripts located on nuke downloads if they are for phpnuke modules they cannot be considered commercial scripts whether or not the owner chose to charge for their download. In other words your Roster module is not a commercial script even though you charge to download it. Since it runs on Phpnuke it is encompassed by GPL and therefore nukedownloads or anyone for that matter may redistribute it.
He may not claim copywrite on it though and I totally agree you should go after his ass if he does.
What I was referring to is the charging to download scripts you did not write. Clan themes does this and you are also entitled to so I was just saying it is Ironic that Bayler is fighting this issue from a site that also does this (along with many others) Remember I am simply talking about the charging to download scripts not the Rename or claiming issue. Also I may remind you Ped that the actions of Clan Themes are not always altruistic as you put a module of mine in your downloads before I had released it publicly before so I do have right to argue. It was in your points charge area only (what was also Ironic as at the time I didn't have enough points here to even download my own damn module that I wrote now isn't that a pisser?) not your paid area but still my point was there's a lot of people pointing fingers that are equally guilty of various offences. Once again I am not comparing that situation with Yours where there is renaming and claiming but with Baylers situation its a damn close offence of similar nature. But ultimately my argument is both for the purpose of A) Learning - Is the something more to protecting our work that Bayers learned that I do not know of? And B) Trying to remind coders that we should be focusing on OpenSource (at least in terms of phpnuke) rather than encoding and and trying to keep our work to ourselves. You can make still make money with legitimate commercial scripts if you want to make money from coding but if you are coding for phpnuke it should be to share it open source you only hurt the community as a whole if you don't!
Doc the very first message was about Milpacs and the offending site has not renamed this file nor claimed the copywrite and that is what I was arguing with Bayler about not about the Clan Themes claim which as I have already stated I completely agree with Clan Themes. Nuke downloads does not have the right to rename the file and claim it as their own. What I wanted to understand is how Bayler believes there is something he can do when the file hasn't been renamed and is not claimed as the copywriters.
Bayler I have read the GPL very thoroughly before and I don't remember this part about not exceeding the access fee of originator. I will have to reread to see what I missed but from my understanding That the charge is not for the file itself but for the cost of hosting the file. Also there is not set rate on this and as for the fact it may be $20 vs $5 well that could be argued that the $20 is not for 1 file but access to all the files which when divided equally puts the cost to download Milpacs at a few cents. This of course is only in argument a civil action (which would involve the term sue) but not Criminal Action which you claim to be ready to pursue. I would like to understand more how this Criminal action can be pursued as I am surprised to hear a crown attorney is interested in pursuing this? If so then this information may be valuable so please elaborate.
Bayler
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Phpnuke-downloads.comPosted:
Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:15 pm
Ive already elaborate....ive quoted the Federal Statues Prior in this Topic....
